Obama: What He Is & What He Isn't



Crossposted from MY LEFT WING

My friend PHIL. I. STINE, one of the few Republicans I actually respect and admire, seems to think the liberal and not-so-liberal left (I being one of the former, the majority of the Netroots Nation being the latter) are naive with respect to Obama and the Democratic Party...

Phil, responding to Tim Gatto's Laissez Faire to Netroots Nation:



"Some of the people that I've seen interviewed at "Netroots" seem to be completely convinced that the Democratic Party is only leaning right to capture the presidency."

Makes it easier and much more enjoyable experience to bullshit yourself.  

Over here on the Right we have the exact opposite problem.  McCain has moved to the right and nobody on the right believes him.  They think he's still a quasi-liberal.  I know he's a moderate because I've been watching him most of my life. So, I'll be voting for him but many on the right won't.  That's your problem with Obama, you don't have a clue what he really is. One thing he definately (sic) is (is) a pol.  I can promise you he won't allow the "netroots" to define him for Americans.  Why?  He's after the bitter/clitter and hispanic vote, not you guys.

by: PHIL. I. STINE @ Sun Jul 20, 2008

No, I think I know what Obama is.


Ideologically, he is a cypher.

Politically, he is a well-intentioned centre-leaning liberal Democrat -- but "liberal" by today's mainstream standards, meaning "conservative" -- and "centre" meaning "right" by the standards of 30 years ago.

Again, we return to my standard complaint in the definition department: Almost no one today knows what the fuck they mean when they use the words "liberal," "conservative," "Democrat" or "Republican." And that's because the meanings of those words have not just evolved -- they have been deconstructed and reconstituted to the point where they mean nothing at all. Hard to have a political dialogue when most people don't even speak the same language.

I think Obama is a decent man who's well on his way to becoming as corrupt and ideologically diluted as his peers. Whether he is truly committed to anything beyond trying to "fix" things, I don't know. I do know that if you live in the rarified atmosphere of political power and manage to retain even a shred of integrity, let alone clarity of purpose, you probably have the sort of preternatural strength of character we usually ascribe to heroes, saints and martyrs.

Given Obama's evident fixation on things religious, I am inclined to believe he is probably disingenuous enough to succeed politically; if he is actually sincere in his religious beliefs, he doesn't have -- excuse the expression -- a prayer. But I think that's unlikely; anyone who truly believed the tenets of Christianity would long ago have entered a different arena.

Or, of course, his beliefs could be so genuine they blind him to reality to the point where he will be able to justify and rationalise anything he needs to in order to accomplish his goals -- Bush, but with a tan.

KIDDING!

Of course, I've never for a moment believed Bush actually believed his pseudo-Christian crap; cognitive dissonance requires cognition, whereas lying through your teeth requires nothing more than good handlers. Bush's problem is that he came to believe he was actually doing the heavy lifting, and having created an 800 pound retarded gorilla, his handlers discovered too late the dangers of investing too much power in a fool.

How did I come back to Bush? Well, it was easy, really: There are many differences between Obama and Bush, but the powerful commonality between them lies in the roles they occupy (or, in Obama's case, will soon occupy).

I wish Phil could try to explain to me why he believes we'd be better off with McCain. From what I've seen, McCain has become (or, more likely, always was) just another political whore willing to do and say whatever he thinks it will take to get to the seat of power -- and though he may truly believe that once he's there, he'll be free to Do Good and Affect Change from the Ultimate Inside, should he actually achieve that supposed apex, he'll find himself constrained by the same demands and necessities and compromises encountered by every other cockeyed idealist who's preceded him. Maybe in his 7th year in office he'll awaken to realise he's done neither what he ought nor what he wished -- and by then it will be too late.

Now, take that assessment and apply it in every respect to Obama. The only visible differences between them are what they WANT to achieve (and a little matter of what they've already done and will actually do, but never mind that now). But, absent anomalous deus ex machina of indescribable proportions, the purported goals of either man, whether genuine or expressed for mere political expedience, will meet the same inexorable fate as all the other men's goals: sacrifice on the altar of political necessity, dressed up as Compromise with the Promise to Eventually Getting Where We Want to Go and ultimately revealed as More of the Same.

I dare anyone to tell me, after reading this, that I ever had blinders on when I looked at Barack Obama -- or, for that matter, John McCain.





Display:


Of course... (2.00 / 3)



I could be wrong.
If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution
by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:21:42 PM EST

You're correct (1.40 / 5)

"...absent anomalous deus ex machina of indescribable proportions, the purported goals of either man, whether genuine or expressed for mere political expedience, will meet the same inexorable fate as all the other men's goals: sacrifice on the altar of political necessity, dressed up as Compromise with the Promise to Eventually Getting Where We Want to Go and ultimately revealed as More of the Same."

Yeppers, right on target: FISA. Iraq. Reproductive rights, etc etc.


by Xov Wonk on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:34:57 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're correct (1.42 / 7)

Know Vox, why were you afraid to stick up for your racist friend, the delegate from New Hamshire, New Hampster.

You troll rated me for bringing up the racist tirade he made on Obama.

Admin deleted the post and likely banned him for a few weeks.

Not sure how the New Hampshire DNC let him stay on since I along with others sent letters with links to his tirade.

I guess it was deleted before the other delegates saw it.

What a shame our party has been infiltrated by you people.

Texas Darling got banned here for making racist comments.

Man that was classic.


by DemsLandslide2008 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:38:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: You're correct (2.00 / 2)

Ah, Know Vox -- the poor man's engels.  Whatever would we do without you?


by username on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 09:21:19 PM EST
[ Parent ]

On a side note, regarding Netroots Nation '08: (2.00 / 2)

But I'm genuinely torn between wishing to experience the camaraderie (though perhaps it wouldn't be camaraderie for a DKos apostate) and feeling like this whole thing turned into a giant Dress It Up Purty But Keep the Democrats' Status Quo movement almost moments after the first YKos closed up shop...

I guess what this reminds me of is nothing so much as not having been invited to a classmate's party in middle school whose attendees all hated me and where I would have been uncomfortable at best and absolutely miserable at (realistic) worst.

I am wistful for what might have been, not for what actually is.

If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution
by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:23:23 PM EST

I'll settle for fixing things (2.00 / 3)


by JJE on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:29:13 PM EST

Right the fuck on. (n/t) (2.00 / 1)


If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution
by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:33:16 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I wanted a pragmatist (2.00 / 4)

and I voted for one.  I don't want an ideologue!  I want a president who has policy goals and beliefs as to the nature and role of government, yes, but I demand a certain flexibility.

Barack Obama isn't as easy to define as we might like, but at the end of the day I expect he will always ask a lot of questions, that he will actually listen to the answers, and he will try to make the best decision he can.

I expect him to do his best to protect the interests of the citizens over corporations.  I expect him to defend our civil liberties.  I expect him to fight for a better standard of living for all Americans.

I don't expect him to sell us out.  As to the details?  I'm open to suggestions, and I suspect he is as well.


by Reaper0Bot0 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:31:57 PM EST

Yup. (2.00 / 3)



I'm just weary of shrieks, howls and moans of many of the idealists who see/saw in Obama the embodiment of all their hopes and dreams and now complain he has  "changed" or "shifted centre" or "shifted right."

The man has not changed.


If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution
by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:34:42 PM EST
[ Parent ]

ideagmatic (none / 0)

It seem you'd like a dash of both ideals and politik, eh?  Sounds good to me.  I think he can do that, and I hope he does.  

What we need to do is get the meaning of the word compromise to not = democrats selling out.  

Hopefully we get 60 and it looks like more US reps, so maybe we'll make compromise = kicking the shit out of neo-cons and midly bending over the republicans.


Democrat for the democratic nominee
by KLRinLA on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:49:23 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I wanted a pragmatist (2.00 / 2)

What Mary Scott said above TIMES TWO!

Hell, it wouldn't really matter HOW far to the left Obama was, it will take fricking HERCULES to start to pull this country BACK from how far right Nixon, Reagan and the Bushies have pulled us....

If he can undue 30% of the damage done by virtually decades of Republic rule in 8 years, GOD BLESS HIM!

He's going to have to deal with a weak economy, YEARS of bad outsourcing policy, TWO wars...

Maybe I should say "God HELP HIM" instead.

My god, it's not just the Fricking USSC, have you people LOOKED at the make-up of the circuit courts?

You give John Mccain even 4 year of more Federalist Society Step Children on the circuit courts and it won't matter that much about the USSC?

Between that, and replacing Ginsburg and Stevens, I would crawl over broken glass for ANY Democrat.

But, I also want Reapers list, and one more BIG WISH.

Tell us the truth, PLEASE, as tough as it is, as much as your handlers are going to say "Worry about how that will play, how will you get relected"...

I'm not looking for FDR.

Just tell us the truth, the hard truth.

We can take it.


"Well the danger on the rocks is surely past... Still I remain tied to the mast"...Don Fagen, Poet and Piano Player
by WashStateBlue on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:49:54 PM EST
[ Parent ]

I don't expect him to sell us out. (1.75 / 4)

Politicians have historically served those who pay their way into office. And for the first time EVER we will have a president financed by the people.

Why would Obama "sell out" the people who are financing him -- the people, that is? I can't believe he would do it just for the fun of it and alienate them and their dollars in the process.

I defy any and all who claim Obama will serve the same interests as Bush (or even Clinton for that matter) to provide ONE REASON why he would.


by Beren on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:34:55 AM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: I don't expect him to sell us out. (2.00 / 1)

Just for the record, swissffun zeroed this comment of mine because of dislike for another comment I did. Couldn't even answer it intelligently -- just rate and run. Very petty blogging and abuse of the system if you ask me.


by Beren on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 03:26:57 AM EST
[ Parent ]

MSOC... (2.00 / 1)

...having been at Netroots Nation I can tell you that I was on the RIGHT of that group, which was ready to string up Nancy Pelosi. So, I'm not exactly what centrist group you think assembled there, but,were I to use only your description... I wouldn't have recognized my own experience.


by Lieber on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:56:27 PM EST

Re: MSOC... (none / 0)


You're problem is with the difference between Left and liberal, the two hardcore but very different parts of the Democratic Party.

NN- i.e. people like Moulitsas- is Left.  Being Left is about wielding power against an Establishment that does not work for your interests.  Left people are generally moderates about anything else, i.e. no liberals.  Left means always fighting against something and someone.

Liberal is about living good and creative lives, not wasting it.


by killjoy on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 07:13:18 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Hmm (2.00 / 2)



I could never define Moulitsas as being on the Left, unless we're talking to the left of the right. Which in my book includes the centre, which is where he squarely is. In my view.

Of course, I'm pretty damned left. But I'm also pretty libertarian, which seems to confuse people... Hell, it confuses me.


If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution
by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 08:04:43 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Hmm (2.00 / 2)

Of course, I'm pretty damned left. But I'm also pretty libertarian, which seems to confuse people... Hell, it confuses me.

Ah, a compatriot in the room (which is another paradox in itself, which is even better).

I have gotten so tired of trying to explain my views that I put "upper left purple Independent" in my profile here and "Centrist pragmatic hardcore liberal and extremist conservative. Make no sense? Good." in my DKOS profile.  Sometimes I think the most satisfying answer to a direct question about where my politics lie is to bark like a dog.

Right-Left.  As if.

Sure, the myriad complexities of sociological and political ideologies can be strung out on a one-dimensional chart.  HA!  We can try to chat the probability waveform of the quantum particle with a dull crayon on the back of a fortune-cookie slip while we're at it.

So, we have a person who (against any sane judgement) chooses to run for President.  We would like this person to solve all the world's problems,  and at the same time we'd like to pin him like a butterfly to a specific micron of a single string.  Anyone we can do that to should imo be automatically disqualified for the job.

Yeah, BO is human. He has variable and evolving views on how to balance an array of vastly interconnected mushy human issues that make cold fusion look as straight-forward as Legos.  Thank goodness.  The last thing we need is someone else going into that blocky house on Penn. Ave. with some stock pile of "answers" ready-made in their head.  He has a chance in hell of making it through the first ten days without the universe intervening and shredding his best laid plans - like it has to everyone else unlucky enough to have that desk - so he better be ready to think on his feet.  If anyone asked more of me in a job interview I'd back out of the building post-haste looking for something to use as a shield.

Good luck, buddy, you're going to need it.

"But we're a needy people.  See we demand so much from our leaders we forget they are human beings, placed on pedestals so high no mere mortal can reach them.  Longing for saints when all we really want is someone to aspire to be like." - Darian Dauchan

-chris


Donate!
by chrisblask on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 11:41:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

My above comment said... (2.00 / 4)

...I think you're right on about who Barack Obama is. He is a center left democrat, which by national standards makes him a "liberal" but NOT a progressive.

He's the best we got at the moment and may be just about as far "left" as you can go and still win a national election.


by Lieber on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 06:59:02 PM EST

In other words (2.00 / 2)

Obama is a politician. I'm so shocked, I say, shocked. He does not walk on water. He is not warm and fuzzy. He is not going to have a beer with us. He WILL restore America's name in the world. He WILL get the neocons out of the White House. He WILL retore a sense of calm to the country. But remember, no matter what a stripper tells you, there is no sex in the Champaign Room.


by RandyMI on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 07:00:07 PM EST

Re: Obama: What He Is & What He Isn't (2.00 / 2)

Maryscott, first let me thank you for long ago helping many of us read NYT opeds behind the now defunct firewall.

Second, as to what you say about Obama, without going into detail, I believe you could (and people with your kind of politics at the time did) say the same thing at this point in the election about Lincoln in 1860 (who wouldn't even come out for abolition) or FDR in 1932 (who, at this point, was all about balancing the federal budget).

In both cases, very talented democratic political leaders were pressed by events and social movements beyond their control to effect real structural change.  Do I think Obama is capable of that?  Answer: yes.  Do I think it's inevitable?  Anwer: no.  But having said that, I'm working harder for Obama than I've worked for any candidate since 1992.


by jmr1948 on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 07:48:16 PM EST

There's a Champaign room in the WH? (none / 0)



Is there a Lansing room, too?

: )


If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution
by Maryscott OConnor on Fri Jul 25, 2008 at 08:05:41 PM EST
[ Parent ]

but no Madison Room. (none / 0)




Democratic Candidate, US Senate, Wisconsin 2012
by benmasel on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 12:58:05 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Ben!!! (none / 0)



Oh, man, I have missed you SO much.

Come over to MLW sometime, will you?


If I can't rant, I don't want to be part of your revolution
by Maryscott OConnor on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 08:52:31 PM EST
[ Parent ]

Re: Obama: (2.00 / 2)

Probably the first and last time I rec the same diary that Know Vox does.

Obama is squarely in the middle of the 30 or so Democratic Senators that are usually described as liberal.  Schumer, Dodd, Boxer, Harkin, Wyden, Bingaman, Levin, and Kerry...Obama's right with them on all the issues.

Is he a leftist in the mold of the activist wing of the Democratic Party in the 60s and 70s?  No.  There aren't many of them that are left in the presidential pool of Senators and Governors.

I believe Obama will try to always do what is right and will listen to criticism.  I think his heart is in the right place and he will pull us back from the idiocy and crime of the past 8 years.  I think he will push good, progressive legislation and help get other progressives elected.  I think he will be a decent president who will improve the standing of the Democratic Party and pave the way for people a bit further left to be taken seriously again in national politics.  And most of all, his election will serve as the ultimate nail in the coffin of rightwing, divisive Karl Rove politics that have given us one disaster after another, and in the idea of reactionary tools like McCain being seen as so-called "moderates".

I don't have to hold my nose to vote for Obama.  I never saw him as some progressive messiah who would instantly bring every soldier home from Iraq and institute REAL universal healthcare.  I have the same reasoned enthusiasm for him that I had for Kerry and for Gore, recognizing that they are real people with faults who nonetheless are lightyears ahead of the opposition and would have made great presidents.


by Skaje on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 02:11:38 AM EST

You're right on when it comes to labels.... (2.00 / 2)

You've touched on a phenomenon that I call "political mythology".

Conservatives venerate (to put it mildly) Ronald Reagan....even though when you examine his record, he was anything but conservative. Massive deficit spending to stimulate the economy, expansion of government programs....Lou Cannon's book "Role of a Lifetime" is a great read on how a career actor approached politics, both as a Governor and President.

Liberals adore John Kennedy...even though most historians list his greatest accomplishments as being a tax cut to stimulate the economy, and launching a program to get us to the moon. Civil Rights got shelved until after the '64 election. Well, fuck--you've got to set priorities, damn it!

For me, the best definition of a leader is someone who will occasionally tell people something they don't want to hear, and attempt to lead them in a different direction, for the good of the country. Needless to say, it's a frustrating approach to politics these days.


by BJJ Fighter on Sat Jul 26, 2008 at 02:18:26 AM EST


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